Linux Format forums

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

Dutch_Master — Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:38 am

Author: Dutch_Master

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:38 am

graemef wrote:

For example, suppose that a estate agent has the idea of a potential client visiting their site and entering a post code, where upon the web site will return a list of property available with a geographical radius of the postcode, showing maps and routes to the properties. This is their idea and they may claim IP rights to the idea. The contractor may write code that will verify the postcode, convert the postcode to a geographical location, identify all properties within a radius of the postcode, grab map data from this data and so on. Each of the functions that the contractor develops help to solve the problem but they need to be put together to actually realise the clients ideas. The contractor can claim the IP rights to the individual functions whilst the client can lay claim to the IP rights on how those functions are assembled.

Actually, that has been done... http://www.funda.nl (note: this is a Dutch website)

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

graemef — Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:30 am

Author: graemef

Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:30 am

Releasing the code first could be a dangerous move because (given there is some potential for dispute) the company might just take the released code and refuse payment.

I also believe that there are valid situations where both parties may lay claim to parts of the IP rights. Any unique concept within the specification provided by the client should reside with the client, that is their competitive advantage which they have paid the contractor to convert into code. However if the specification just mentioned the ideas whilst the contractor packages the various concepts into self contained units, then the contractor has a valid claim that the libraries of code is the property of the contractor.

For example, suppose that a estate agent has the idea of a potential client visiting their site and entering a post code, where upon the web site will return a list of property available with a geographical radius of the postcode, showing maps and routes to the properties. This is their idea and they may claim IP rights to the idea. The contractor may write code that will verify the postcode, convert the postcode to a geographical location, identify all properties within a radius of the postcode, grab map data from this data and so on. Each of the functions that the contractor develops help to solve the problem but they need to be put together to actually realise the clients ideas. The contractor can claim the IP rights to the individual functions whilst the client can lay claim to the IP rights on how those functions are assembled.

In such a situation it is not unreasonable for a contract to specify non disclosure to a competitor. Thus you can't build the same concept for another estate agent (normally within a stipulated time period) but it wouldn't stop the same contractor from using the functions for a different market, such as a chain of restaurants where a visitor to the web site enters a postcode and they are given directions to the nearest restaurant.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

Bazza — Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:06 pm

Author: Bazza

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:06 pm

One could always write parallel code that uses similar routines
and release those as your (C), PD, GPL, Freeware etc, etc,
BEFORE releasing the customers code. That way you have an
official time stamp BEFORE the customer and in the Public
Domain somewhere, say sourceforge.net...

Tell the customer that you used YOUR code for their usage
and that you release your code/ideas to them free of any
restrictions.

Not sure if it would work but an idea nevertheless...

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

johnhudson — Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:52 pm

Author: johnhudson

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:52 pm

ollie wrote:

Contractors own the code they write unless specifically stated so in the contract. You need a to consult with a contracts lawyer.

Thanks. Sorry for the misinformation. I've realised on checking Wikipedia that the advice I got related to the type of contract I was most commonly undertaking and doesn't apply in general.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

nelz — Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:57 pm

Author: nelz

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:57 pm

ollie wrote:

nelz wrote:

You have to have copyright on the code in order to be able to license it.

There is no formal method of copyright. Once you have written down, drawn, painted, sculpted, photographed or typed out you hold copyright on that "work". It is only by actively changing the licence by specifying GPL, Creative Commons or any of the other licences that can be used.

That only applies when you are working in isolation, otherwise there would be no reason for this thread to exist. The OP has reasonable doubts about the ownership of the code, any licence issued by anyone claiming ownership of the code would depend on that ownership being proved.

You cannot use a licence to prove ownership.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

jack_spratt — Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:35 pm

Author: jack_spratt

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:35 pm

Quote:

I suspect it would come down to who blinks first when it comes to forking out the �� for legal representation

I think that you may be right there, and I suspect that in such a situation, I'll "blink" first.

Currently I'm getting advice at �250 per hour plus VAT, but I expect to only require 1hr to get a definitive answer on where I stand. Being in the right in terms of ownership does not necessarily mean that I wont have to go to court however. They could still dispute it, even if I'm totally confident of my position

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

AndyBaxman — Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:56 pm

Author: AndyBaxman

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:56 pm

ollie wrote:

nelz wrote:

You have to have copyright on the code in order to be able to license it.

Yes, and no. If you are employed to write code for a 3rd party, be it a customer or employer, and the contract terms stipulate that they own the copyright of your work under certain defined terms then you never hold copyright for that work.

Aside from that, if you are writing for yourself then you do have an automatic copyright. The trouble is, is you do not make a deliberate statement of ownership and have it witnessed as such, then it will be almost impossible to prove.

You do, however, have the right to be identified as the author, irrespective of who owns the copyright.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

AndyBaxman — Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:45 pm

Author: AndyBaxman

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:45 pm

ollie wrote:

Sorry, this is wrong. Only if you are an employee does the code belong to an employer. Contractors own the code they write unless specifically stated so in the contract.

That would be very shaky ground to base a case on. If there is no written agreement regarding IP ownership then there may be an implied or verbal one.

I suspect it would come down to who blinks first when it comes to forking out the �� for legal representation.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

ollie — Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:33 pm

Author: ollie

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:33 pm

nelz wrote:

You have to have copyright on the code in order to be able to license it.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

nelz — Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:41 pm

Author: nelz

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:41 pm

graemef wrote:

Did you put any license information in the source code?

If so I would suspect that the license would take precedence (assuming any lack of stipulation in the contract).

Surely it's the other way round? You have to have copyright on the code in order to be able to license it.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

ollie — Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:39 pm

Author: ollie

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:39 pm

jack_spratt wrote:

I haven't added any copyright notice to the files yet, but I will do so now, in case that makes a difference.

You don't need a copyright notice in your work, it is automatically copyrighted under the Berne Convention. See International copyright law - The Berne Convention for more info relevant to the UK.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

jack_spratt — Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:58 am

Author: jack_spratt

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:58 am

Hmm, it does seem that there are several issues here.

I've opted to consult with http://www.egos.co.uk/ - apparently specialists in IT and IP.

The project does use some code that I had previously written, and the whole project it is written in such a way as to be portable and redeployable.

There has been no discussion whatsoever, much less written agreement about any kind of IP ownership.

The client has provided testing (not as much as I have), but I don't see how that in itself gives them rights - I have still not agreed to hand over ownership, and testing would always be required for a specific deployment of software that I'd written.

There is no third party code in use except things like lightbox 2, jquery, and a few FOSS items like that, but they will all count as plugins I think and therefore not affect the license of the code in question.

I haven't added any copyright notice to the files yet, but I will do so now, in case that makes a difference.

Thanks for all your input!

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

ollie — Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:50 am

Author: ollie

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:50 am

johnhudson wrote:

The default legal assumption is that the code belongs to you unless you wrote it in the course of your employment; if you are self-employed and a contractor pays you for some code, the default assumption is that whatever code you wrote which was entirely original and written for the purpose of fulfilling the contract belongs to them because they have been paying you for your output.

Sorry, this is wrong. Only if you are an employee does the code belong to an employer. Contractors own the code they write unless specifically stated so in the contract.

You need a to consult with a contracts lawyer. Look to your local LUG or contact UK Linux User Groups.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

AndyBaxman — Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:47 am

Author: AndyBaxman

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:47 am

graemef wrote:

If not did you use any code that anyone else had developed? (such as third party frameworks). Check out their license.

A good point. Specifically GPL code. If your project uses GPL code it will have major implications with regard to IP ownership. The major issue is that code that incorporates GPL code is, by the terms of the GPL, also GPL code.

Re: I write the code, but who owns it?

graemef — Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:38 am

Author: graemef

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:38 am

I assume that from your question your contracts didn't specify one way or the other.

Did you put any license information in the source code?

If so I would suspect that the license would take precedence (assuming any lack of stipulation in the contract).

If not did you use any code that anyone else had developed? (such as third party frameworks). Check out their license.

Did you use code that you developed (for an earlier project) but were reusing (for this one)?

What additional resources did the client provide. Design, Code, Testing?