Linux Format forums

RE: No don

guy — Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:42 pm

Author: guy

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:42 pm

Well, I finally read andychanelle's beginner's guide to Gnome.

It starts at just about the right level for rank beginners, and includes some useful bits for the slightly more adventurous, which is nice. I'd have liked a screenshot of the basic desktop, but I can understand that it would have taken up a lot of page with not much information.

I guess one problem must have been that a very sparse desktop might lead to an equally sparse article, but I think he did a good job of finding useful things to say. <troll>Just shows how much effort is needed to understand cluttered and non-intuitive KDE desktops</troll>.

I would have liked a little more background about the underlying technologies (what is an "object model environment" and what does it do for me?), but that's me, always picky.

RE: No don

bigjohn — Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:25 pm

Author: bigjohn

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:25 pm

Well personally, contrary to what pau1ie says, I don't believe it is "dumbing down", it's more of a case of widening the demographic (in a learning sense).

Theres also a fair amount of having an appropriate "mindset". For example, I have always been someone who learns readily in a classroom environment, I find the "OJT" technique much harder to follow.

The magazine wouldn't necessarily have to change, because perhaps a subs based model or just one that comes from the main mag sub, i.e. username/password, might just be able to have a few additional notes that might be of assistance to those of us with the lower levels of linux learning/knowledge/experience etc, or something like that.

Using my example, obviously it would be difficult, for most people to attend classes for something, as we all have to earn that living (personally, it's just about nigh on impossible to do classes - unless I could find one that does "stuff" in the middle of the afternoon).

Just because I'm stuck with the resources for learning that I have access too, with no chance in sight of changing that, it shouldn't stop me from trying to make suggestions about how the very resources that I do use, could be improved with a minimum of effort and/or expense.

Also, pau1ie mentions that the Openlaszlo article was a review, not a tutorial. Yes, even I spotted that. But I am also very interested in how to "do" web stuff, and I don't want to have to go back to windows to either locate a snide copy of either the adobe or macromedia (yes, I also spotted that story as well) products, or re-mortgage the house to buy a copy. I just wasn't prepared for how much of a bugger it was to get installed - though when I did, it was worth it IMO. It will be many a year before I could even entertain having a go at doing anything with it, but it looks like one hell of an application, and even a "nugget" like me now fully understands why the review was so good.

regards

John

No don't dumb down!

pau1ie — Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:27 pm

Author: pau1ie

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:27 pm

I get worried about people saying its too highbrow, and needs loads of beginners tutorials, I will cancel my subscription if the staff bow to this pressure. I have been using linux for 5 years and unix for 15 years, and I am still learning. I dont want a tutorial on "How to use gedit" (How many tutorials have you seen for notepad in windows mags?)

The mag is not big enough to do everything. Take openlaslo, it was a review not a tutorial. Therefore if you want to use it read the documentation that comes with it (Which scored 10/10 in the review) I have never used it, but the nature of the beast is that it is a complex piece of kit. It could be the subject of a tutorial series, and that would only scratch the surface.

However bigjohn has a point with the java thing. Apart from the political problems of the "Java trap" highlighted by Richard Stallman, it is simply a lot more difficult to install software that needs it because it is not supported by the distros.

I like LF for the reviews and "What on earth is" sections, because you can learn what is available. I like the idea of the tutorials, but in practise I never get round to doing them unless I want to learn the technology for a particular reason. Gimp tutorials I have never found very useful, though I like the idea. I use the Gimp a lot for manipulating images, but it is difficult to find what I want to do in the tutorials.

On the old website there were some old tutorials. Is there any possibility of getting anything older than say 2 or 3 years on the website or the DVD? Especially if your back issues have sold out?

As for other mags, I do subscribe to another UK based linux mag, which has had some criticism in these forums, but I like it. While LF is focussed on reviews and hands on, this other one is more political and reflective, I like both, they are different, they dont really compete.

I love the power that Linux gives you, the endless exploring that can be done all for free. The tutorials in windows based mags either expect you to have paid hundreds of pounds on some software, or use a version on the cover disc that has to be registered immeiately and stops working after a month or two - No hope for someone like me who probably does the tutorials a couple of years after they are written.

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

bigjohn — Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:59 am

Author: bigjohn

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:59 am

jjmac wrote:

bigjohn wrote:
>>
(I find some of MSs' marketing techniques distasteful, but my selection of linux so that I have some choice often leaves me bewildered. Because IMO too much choice is no choice at all).
>>

hmmmmm, MS have been very good at training their resource base to accept a particular standard level as being <cough> normal </cough>. It is a hard habit to break. When you go into a major deptment store, you are able to ignore all the things on the shelf if you want to ... but just 'cause your not into skiing (grin) does that mean they shouldn't be on offer. The whole thing is silly, but then ... i haven't really read it through yet. Is it worth it ?

Yeah OK, I can see that - but even after 3 years of trying to learn this thing that is linux (various distros), I still suffer because I find it difficult to get into the mindset.

Plus, IMO, the "how to do stuff" type articles are aimed a little too high. Why, because the uninitiated don't even know where to start.

I feel that with things explained at a "lower" level, the newbie has something to follow, the more experience have something to follow or if their levels of knowledge permit, they are better placed to be able to skip read those parts of the article as their experience is often enough to know that say, after ./configure, you normally do make, and so on.

Like my example in an earlier post. Openlaszlo, OK yes, the app is too advanced for me to make any use of it, but I can see that it appears to be "one hell of a piece of kit"!. Sure the article that reviewed it gave it a good write up, but I don't recall it saying that I'd need the java SDK, rather than the JRE that is either shipped with lots of distros or is just available straight forward rpm/deb/whatever format - I feel that it requires a bit more "bottle" to install it from the Sun site. Plus the review didn't even hint at possible problems at install stage, as though it just presumed that the reader would know.

So OK, if it's a "space" type concern of how to fit everything into the mag, then maybe some "newbie notes" for articles that requires some additional assistance or some similar arrangement.

The mag writers aren't just journo's, lots of them are very knowledgable people (well if they aren't then they need a pay rise as they're doing a vvv good job of faking it), but as with most knowledgable types, it's very easy to overlook how hard something might be to those with lesser levels of experience/knowledge - surely you must have seen the "just do whatever" type comments around the net? which then begs the question of how to "just do whatever" - if you know, you know, if you don't , you're stuffed.

My earlier example of samba. in a different thread http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=799&highlight=
"Nigel" very kindly explained how to configure "it" in a way that easily made sense of what I feel is a very complicated issue. Sure, I'd tried to read the O'Really guide on using samba, but was getting bogged down with so much extraneous info that it made it nigh on impossible to follow/understand/implement. In other words, overkill!

But the way that Nigel explained it, means that I now have the samba up and running to be getting on with, and I can now take my time (maybe with the O'Really site or something else) to see if I can get my head round configuring (actually learning why, I have to have the various options that I have in ) that most confusing of files, the smb.conf!

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

nelz — Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:06 pm

Author: nelz

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:06 pm

You can change the keystrokes in Joe, but by the time you've worked out how to do that, you've already got used to the arcane ones. now, if I could only stop using ^kx (then save command in joe) in Kate, where ^k deletes the current line

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

towy71 — Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:10 pm

Author: towy71

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:10 pm

vi, emacs gah! much better to stick with wordstar, or rather joe, uses the same arcane keystrokes ^kh etc, oh happy days of innocence
and Guy you're a cynic

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

guy — Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:07 pm

Author: guy

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:07 pm

andychannelle wrote:

I think the EMACS things were by Biaggio Lucini.

Oh, aye. Blame it on someone else. Best not mention the editor who accepted it, eh? I can see you'll go far, me lad.

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

jjmac — Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:11 am

Author: jjmac

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:11 am

bigjohn wrote:
>>
(I find some of MSs' marketing techniques distasteful, but my selection of linux so that I have some choice often leaves me bewildered. Because IMO too much choice is no choice at all).
>>

hmmmmm, MS have been very good at training their resource base to accept a particular standard level as being <cough> normal </cough>. It is a hard habit to break. When you go into a major deptment store, you are able to ignore all the things on the shelf if you want to ... but just 'cause your not into skiing (grin) does that mean they shouldn't be on offer. The whole thing is silly, but then ... i haven't really read it through yet. Is it worth it ?

jm

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

andychannelle — Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:59 am

Author: andychannelle

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:59 am

I think the EMACS things were by Biaggio Lucini. I have covered word processors in the past, but not text editors - I thought they would be of more interest to programmers rather than mere mortals, but then I've obviously fallen into the trap of thinking that text editors=EMACS, Vi, Kate etc. rather than a tool for writing short bits of text with less concern about formatting. Command line is a last resort for me - give me menus and icons any day.
I do plan on doing some stuff on note taking apps in future so this could include basic text editors like KWrite, as I think they sort of fall into the same region of use.

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

guy — Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:00 am

Author: guy

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:00 am

Andy, I said earlier that

Quote:

OK, a lot of this stuff will appear in articles like, "Getting to know Samba" or "Customising Thunderbird" or whatever, but if I am a newb then I don't recognise the buzzwords and don't read the article. And those articles probably won't look at the compatibility issues in the most helpful way.

For example back in the spring you did a two-parter on EMACS. Wouldn't Gedit and whatever KDE provide have been easier for us Wordpad bunnies?

Yes, you have covered a fair bit of what I need but it's not always easy to recognise the key information when I stumble across it.

I'm not saying your articles are not a great help (or I wouldn't have so many backnumbers to check back through!). Customising Firefox and System Maintenance (apt and RPM), to name but two, were really useful. Just that there's always room for improvement. Keep it up! Of course, if you could prise enough pages out of Evil Nick for two beginner's articles each month....

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

AudioMove — Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:47 pm

Author: AudioMove

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:47 pm

bigjohn if online doc doesnt do it for you take a trip to o'reilly books, their the best and i set up samba using "using samba" by o'reilly awhile back and it works a treat. Everyone has bitched about online doc been not so good but i thik thats where o'reilly comes in, if u cant understand some docs use the books as their nearly always guaranteed to sort you out.

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

bigjohn — Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:36 pm

Author: bigjohn

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:36 pm

guy 1, nelz 0 - erm, sorry nelz, I couldn't resist that one.

But guys post is pretty much what I feel, though guy as comes across as "smarter than the average bear"! Whereas me, well I'm a stinkin' 'orrible trucker. So apart from the fact that me and me wagon could crush yer car without even scratching my paint, which I'm sure most will agree is a pretty useless ability, my world isn't one of servers, hard drives, ram, kernel compiling etc etc, it's one of grease, servo's, fifth wheels, 1mm of tread all round, suzy lines, safety dog clips and wheel nut pointers.

I like to think that I'm reasonably "well read", but Shakespear, Tolstoy, Marx, Bacon, Nietzche, Jung etc, amongst many others, it in no way prepares you to tackle poorly written technical documentation. Especially if it has to be read for a particular goal. Those who consider themselves "enthusiasts" are more likely to have the mindset for such a task.

I might have been at this "linux lark" for over 3 years now, but I only consider myself a "user" (or n00b), when it comes to most "things linux".

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

andychannelle — Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:24 pm

Author: andychannelle

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:24 pm

Guy:

I have been intending on republishing all my beginners stuff (with appropriate updates) online for some time. I've even started trying out a few formats. One thought I had was to do the text on a standard blog (www.beginners-guide-to-linux.co.uk) and then have images posted on something like Flickr, which means I could reduce costs a lot and attempt to get some payback through Google Adsense or something.

Much of the stuff you have mentioned has been covered in the series I've been doing, but it's difficult to say to Nick or Paul I'm going to cover Samba again, when I've done it 18 months ago. The online thing would cover this well.

Andy

(edited so it makes sense at 8pm, July 31st)

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

guy — Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:34 am

Author: guy

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:34 am

Andychanelle asks if some of the beginner's articles are a bit advanced.
I would say some of them are getting that way, but it is good to show that beginners can do useful stuff. It's okay at this level but don't go any deeper unless it fulfils a real need. IMHO a two-part article, with the first carefully introducing the basics and the second getting to where the author originally intended, is sometimes worthwhile. I will read the new GNOME mini-series with interest

If these were repackaged as an online resource, it would be great. Sitting down to organise the subject areas for the resource would be a good way to identify new articles, too. Don't rule out a (bi?)annually updated "Starting with Linux" LXF special in the newsagents either!

Nelz asks for specifics. Here's a "beginner's" need. The biggest issue I face is accessing all my old stuff, and maintaining two systems because I need to keep Windows for the odd killer app or tricky file format.

What are the pros and cons of dual-boot vs. separate boxes?

How do I network a new Linux box to my Windows PC, so I can browse its FAT32 (98/SE/ME) and/or NTFS (NT/2000/XP) filesystem?

How to write to the Windows filesystem (dual-boot and networked)? And (how) can I get the PC to read/write the Linux filesystem (does it make a difference which Linux filesystem I use, e.g. whether I choose a journaling filesystem or not)?

And what's the best way to set up a single home for all my stuff, with a suitable backup regime? For example I presently have two PCs, and manually back up all my stuff from one onto the other - there must be a slicker way.

How do I import my Outlook (or in my case, Turnpike) emails and address book into (say) Thunderbird, and set up spam filtering?

In fact, I think there's scope for an "Opening the windows" regular series.

OK, a lot of this stuff will appear in articles like, "Getting to know Samba" or "Customising Thunderbird" or whatever, but if I am a newb then I don't recognise the buzzwords and don't read the article. And those articles probably won't look at the compatibility issues in the most helpful way.

Anyway, hope this is specific enough to give some ideas.

Re: The Mag - not as helpful as I'd hoped!

towy71 — Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:12 am

Author: towy71

Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:12 am

bigjohn not the only one
Dick aka perpetual dummy