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Learning how to develop/programme an application?

 
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bigjohn
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

Hi there forum,

I've just posted this:

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?p=2528477#post2528477

at LQ, but thought I'd link it here as well as there are some very knowledgable types who might be able to "point me in the right direction".

If you have the time to read my linked post and can offer any advice etc etc as to how I get started with such an endeavour, I'd be very greatful.

regards

John
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nordle
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

I understand that java can be very good, with a mobile version having been around for a while.

This requires a phone to have java support though, many do, but a lot don't.

What about a SMS based system. You offer the service using a monthly sub. They text
your_text_no driver_id command
8111 abcd start
8111 abcd stop
whatever.

Then your system just texts them when a deadline is approaching or whatever it is they need to be notified of.

99% of phones have sms, and the cost of 20p a day on txt's + £20/month sub per driver is preferable to a massive fine I would guess.

EDIT:
scrap the driver id, it not very secure and requires more typing. The service could tie the mobile phone to the driver, so it just matches the telephone number to the account.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:55 pm    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

I was thinking along the lines of a standalone app, because I suspect that it might get used on a free basis, but not so much, unless it was a real quality app and could be sold/offered to the actual businesses. The aim being to try to help other drivers stay safe/legal, rather than make money.

Plus, as the last two phones I've had the use of from an employer have been ones that definitely aren't java enabled it might only work if the driver carries his/her own phone that is.

Not that that might make any difference, because I don't really know where to start. I'm hoping that this might attract some guidance to howto's or similar to rudimentary programming or something like that.

Or if someone who knows about such things might recognise that a particular programming environment is more suitable than another, and hopefully it's something that isn't too difficult to adapt to being cross platform.

I might be able to find something that could be done for linux (as it's my eventual intention to move to a linux based device or even for my current Palm based Treo 650), but I'm suspecting that the initial focus will have to be linux and/or symbian based.

Of course, if it transpired that I might be in a position to make some readies from it then all the better, but the idea is as freeware in the first instance.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:56 pm    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

You can actually download a simulator for a java enabled mobile phone from sun, which will let you develop a mobile phone based app, and run it on a PC through the emulator. Unfortunately, while the actual functions in the app would probably be the same in mobile and stand-alone java, things like the display would be different.

What you might be able to do is write an app which can be run in both ways. Eg you can write a java app with both a run and main method, so that it will work as an applet or stand-alone. You can probably do the same for mobile phone apps (midlets I think they're called).

Tony
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:19 am    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

Howdy,

I read the link above and i think i get the idea. You seem to be think of a kind of specialised 'stop watch' application. I'm not familiar with programing for the type of device you are looking at. But you have presented something very interesting. In that you will be doing a number of things here. Basically, learning to program, and also, aiming to produce something useful in the process.

The best way to learn programing, if there is a best way, but certainly the most enjoyable way, is if a person has what people like to call an 'itch'. Which it looks like you have. So half the issue is already there.

As far as the 'form' of the program is concerned, how it should be structured, whats the best language etc ... let that stuff create it self during the process. Even to let it form and then reform as it progresses. Just choose what ever feels comfortable, or is handy ... When/if changing over to another language, if that should occur, and it probably will, then that becomes a positive, as it will be an exercise in translation. And also helps to reveal the 'sameness' of different languages.


I would suggest that you treat each requirement as a separate line of experimentation. Not worring about all the accompanying repartitions. Those repartitions are a good thing as well, as they will reveal the elements that can be made common for when it's all merged into a final application. And help a person become more familiar with those elements as well.

What i'm getting at, is to just start experimenting with timer objects/components. Probably using a gui for convenience. Once started like that you will find that ideas will tend to follow on from that quite naturally.


Create a form in a gui and drop a few buttons on it and either one or a few text/edit components , or maybe just label objects. To display output. And either one or a few timer objects. Dont worry about trying to make it look to good. Just enough so that it's workable. Then use the event handler(s) that will be associated with each button to experiment with manipulating those objects.


As you say, your starting from total scratch ... then the raw experimentation process, while time consuming, will allow you to think about how these things could be combined into an over all expression. If you can find any existing source along these lines , all the better. Existing source, while it is possible to adapt such things, isn't always as directly helpful as usually thought. It can be a good way to get ideas though, on coding constructs. But as far as keeping in touch with the program as it develops goes, it is often just better to just write it your self from the ground up. Rather than trying to visualise some thing drawn up by some one else. A persons idiosyncrasies will often be reflected in their coding ... to degrees.


A lot of the experiments may appear to be unrelated. But over time you will likely stumble apone things that will just jump off the screen at you. Such as, things that will be so obvious as to what you want to use in the final program.


When something does start to gel, it doesn't matter how bulky or incomplete it may appear. The first thing is to get something that is simple, and working. It can always be reduced and made respectfully terse later on , losing its' obviousness too, in the process. It can be a right pain, when after a couple of months of just leaving it, and when you come back, it can't be figured out just wtf i was thinking of at the time Smile. So long hand at least will allow you to be able to read your own stuff (grin). Important when something is still trying to find its' final shape.


As you mention ... making a start. That is the hardest part. So by pass that and just start any where. By doing simple timer object experiments in a gui. Then letting the plan form while doing that. Eventually you will have a lot of separate ideas/experiments recorded in a whole bunch of subdirectories, full of repetitive elements.

It's then a matter of taking those pieces and slotting them together, so to speak.

Keeping the structure of those pieces as similar as possible, each being a very small app in themselves, should allow you to more easily add elements/things over looked, later.

I would tend to go for, in the final construction, a separate file for your main function with a separate file used for each different usage of a timer. Along with a header full of 'extern' declations included in each one. With the actual declarations being in the file holding the main function.


As far as whether it needs special stylisations for the device your thinking of, don't let that be such an issue. As in, don't let it get in the way of getting a working set together. You can alway make those adjustments later. The important thing is to get the ball rolling initially.

It sounds very interesting and should be fun. Don't be to surprised to find it taking up most of 2007 either (grin). Hope to see some further posts on this ... Good Luck



jm
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:31 pm    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies/encouragement.

Yes jjmac you are pretty much correct in your guess. It would be a specialised "stop watch" type application - except rather than being able to time 1 or 2 "things" it would actually be timing, erm I think, 4 "things" in one day, with a few extra bits over a week, fortnight and month (ultimately also giving an average over 17 weeks, though thats actually outside the scope of the main Tachograph Regulations, and has only been "sprung on us" (drivers that is) in the last 18 months as we now also come under the EU's "working time directive").

I'd guessed in a previous post that my current "work" phone wouldn't be java enabled, though from reading some stuff about the symbian OS it would seem that it might be, it just doesn't come with the nice, easily recogniseable "coffee cup" logo.

My problem is more of a case that I don't know an object/component from an integer (I learned "integer" from "how stuff works" site, though I still don't really understand what it is).

I think, having read TonyLB's post that java is probably the way to start. I'm getting the picture that it's not gonna be an easy thing to do so by the time it's done (if ever), smart phones or at least phones with "smart" capability, will be "de rigeur" and more common place than they are at the moment.

regards

John
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:58 am    Post subject: RE: Learning how to develop/programme an application? Reply with quote

Howdy,

It may not be an 'easy thing to do', but that changes once it's started. Making the start is the trick. A lot of people might say that it's best to have a plan formulated initially ... and so too. But i don't think that thinking something has to be completely formalised from the on set, should be allowed to get in the way of getting it started. As it's also a 'learning about programming' exercise as well, i figure that that should be the main 'plan', or avenue of attack to start with. As you have a purpose as well ... those two things convieniantly come together. A bit like the 'killing two birds' with one stone, type of thing. So my suggestion is, to approach it from the on set as a series of experiments, mainly focusing on 'timer' objects/components. And allowing that process to run into others. That in itself will serve to reveal the required underlying fundamentals of the actual programming side. And focusing on a timer component/object will make just be making it relevant for your immediate purpose.

Java does have some quite elaborate 'time' type compents that could be just what your looking for. A 'calendar' object comes to mind. I think it needs to be initialised with a 'date' object. It can provide a lot of date/time related information that probably would be useful for a program like yours. Not to be confused with the more visual standard type 'calender' that also exists as a component. The one i'm thinking of is none visual.


Even using a development environment like 'Visual Cafe' on an old <cough> windows OS </cough> would be a good start here. It has context help, a long with an actual help facility. The info you will need initially, would be adequately provided by the IDE itself, so an IDE with a visual design mode and reasonable help facilities would be whats needed to get things started.


A component is just a program designed to provide a functionality but also designed to run inside an other program rather than to be stand alone. The later becoming its' 'parent' if it is located with in the later. As it likely would ... such as a button etc. And is likely to be owned by that parent if its' memory/resource allocation is also owned by the 'parent'. Again most likely. And it will commonly have a visual representation, as for a button or a label, or a scroll bar. But not necessarily, as for things like timers, calendars, data base objects. The larger the actual 'self contained, needs a parent to run' in type of program, the more it will tend to be refered to as a component. Once an instance is created, you have an object of that component. So it is also a 'class' as well ... or an 'Active X' control in MS' visual basic.


I'd suggest that you don't try to look to much for the problems, or the seemingly long familiarity curve involved, but to just ignore all that and just jump in to an IDE, something with a designer, and just start experimenting. And keeping those experiments collected as small projects in them selves. Even when it comes to 'which' language ... possibly it will eventually prove to be java. But don't hesitate if a java IDE isn't immediately available. One of the Qt designers will likely be on your existing box any way. Or not far from it, such as on a disc. Qtdesigner ... Kdevelop ... anything that has a visual component design environment and a component palate. And hopefully a decent help system.


As far as whats the best documentation to use ... hmmmm, i don't think there is one really. All the doc states are pretty much the same. A seemingly extensive collection of information scattered everywhere, that covers everything ... except what i'm actually looking for at the moment Smile. A bit like trying to find a tool in a garage sometimes. And every thing else is found except for the thing being looked for. So ... a good in built help system in the IDE being used becomes more or less essential. Especially if it is context sensitive. Even going for a specialised book may be a good idea as well. But i'd check before buying anthing first, of course.


Yep , it will likely be tricky at first. But i figure you already know how these things go. All things are tricky in that way. But they also tend to get less so once gone over a enough times. Finding the free time to devote to it will likely become more of an issue. Programming can be one of those things that can become insidiously absorbing. Such as, finding your self in front of your keyboard in the middle of the night because you have just woken up with a 'Eureka !' revelation, on a particularly niggling programming issue your've been mulling over all day. With the better half thinking to themselves, that their teamed up with a lunatic. All par for the course though, and it can be a lot of fun. As long as the surrounding people have at least some sense of humour, that is (grin).


Trucks over this way have a thing on the wheel hubs that record distances, but i don't think they record times. But most trucks, at least a lot, the larger companies, have their trucks gps enabled. So the office can tell where they are at any particular time. But a personal 'timer/scheduler' device ... that is a good idea !. So i hope you do progress with it. And i think a thing like that could well 'take off' so to speak, as time goes on. Even becoming thought of as an essential piece of equipment. Having it linked to such things as other devices on the vehicle, as you also mentioned ... well, that will be a later version, maybe(grin).


I'll have to go and wash my mouth out now for the MS visual cafe mention (grin) ... a reasonably good light weight java ide/designer though, and would be sufficient to get things started.


jm
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that reply jjmac - I've read through it, but will have to read through it slowly, soas to digest exactly what you've said <mantra>it will make sense, it will make sense, it will make sense</mantra> Very Happy

To show what I'm actually up against, this is the main document that the regs are taken from. It's a .pdf, but you should only bother looking at pages 7 to 12 in the actual document or it showed up as pages 9 to 13 in the acrobat reader. The rest is very, very dry.

Though if (you can be bothered Very Happy ) look at the pages I mention, you should see that although the "stopwatch" would need to be quite smart, the rules are fixed and only subject to update every couple of years. Hence if I can crack this, then I can probably keep it going - even if I just have to show it as a webpage with a form to email the app to anyone interested - I've done quite a bit of thinking about this inasfaras it'd have to be released as Creative Commons (probably) because I don't mind the learning but as it's very niche, I'm buggered if some company is gonna use it without permission (whereas, drivers can have it for nothing - as and when I can crack it - sensible or greedy ? I haven't thought about that).

What I did note in my quick read through of your post (sorry, it's been a long day - with another tomorrow) was the reference to "IDE" - by that, I'm presuming that you're refering to "Integrated Development Environments" ??? (sorry for the dumb Q, but I try to steer clear of too much in the way of acronyms as I find it clouds my thinking somewhat).

I'll post again, probably at the weekend, as I'm bound to have some questions about what you've said (or does the LXF forum support PM's, I don't know, or whether you'd mind)?

regards

John
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy John


>>
Hence if I can crack this, then I can probably keep it going - even if I just have to show it as a webpage with a form to email the app to anyone interested ... I've done quite a bit of thinking about this inasfaras it'd have to be released as Creative Commons (probably) because I don't mind the learning but as it's very niche, I'm buggered if some company is gonna use it without permission
>>

Yep, i tend to start things from that end too (grin). All that of course is relavent, but whats more relavent is the 'start'. The start will lead it self on. All the other intricacies can present themselves at there time.. Java is well worth looking into too, the more i think of it. Just thinking of the Calender object it has.

>>
What I did note in my quick read through of your post (sorry, it's been a long day - with another tomorrow) was the reference to "IDE" - by that, I'm presuming that you're refering to "Integrated Development Environments" ???
>>

Yes, finding the time will probably be a trick in it self, so, a schedule probably wont be very helpful. Or trying to cover all the possible aspects. The 'start' is the important thing. ... And Yes, an IDE ... A programming environment. I mean, something, with a __visual__ designer mode. A component palate. Create a form, click on a component, drag it or move the mouse over to the form .. and just drop it. Let the IDE create the appropriate gui code, along with an 'event handler. The event handler is the thing that will be important. The associated gui code will likely be 'messy', to say the least. Event handler --> Some times called a 'call back'. A 'call back' is a kind of defaulted function. It will usually call another more specific function. The function it calls on may be something you create externally, or it can be coded internal to the 'event handler'. Basically the way something like the 'iptables' facility works, it just has functions that 'call' other functions in a very tricky way. They will call functions as adreeses, or rather, as pointers to other functions. If they don't exist, no matter. Those other functions will do all the work, and then return back a result. Not a bad trick really. Instead of an actual name, they will only be known via their typing. But it does allows a third party provider to completely ignore any particular naming scheme. As is utilised by the 'netfilter module' facility in the kernel. hmmmm, it isn't as complexed as i may have made that just sound. And i am no expert on call backs. My definition of them sometimes changes over short periods Smile Essentially a generated event handler/function designed to respond to an event. Such as a button click. Or some other event.

In essence ... any environment like that. And all you need to do is work with those 'event handlers'. As that will be the main thing they expose. All the functionality associated can be 'experimented within those constructs

What to put in them ... yep ... the start is the big thing Smile

>>
but I try to steer clear of too much in the way of acronyms as I find it clouds my thinking somewhat)
>>

Your just going to love the help file facilities (grin) ... sorry, i couldn't resist that. I do agree too, you know. There are to many acronyms thrown around i recon.

>>
does the LXF forum support PM's,
>>

Yes, it does. But hey ... open forum !. The more eyes and all that Smile


Just thinking ... how would a gps system work into this. Is there already some facility there that isn't being used. Such as, something that kicks in as soon as the vehicle moves, keeps state, then continues with further movement. This really could expand into something eventually ....


jm
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjmac wrote:
Just thinking ... how would a gps system work into this. Is there already some facility there that isn't being used. Such as, something that kicks in as soon as the vehicle moves, keeps state, then continues with further movement. This really could expand into something eventually ....

What about openstreetmap so that we can all benefit from your travels Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

towy71 wrote:
jjmac wrote:
Just thinking ... how would a gps system work into this. Is there already some facility there that isn't being used. Such as, something that kicks in as soon as the vehicle moves, keeps state, then continues with further movement. This really could expand into something eventually ....

What about openstreetmap so that we can all benefit from your travels Wink

Erm probably not towy71, because if you try to get directions from any of the usual sources i.e. multimap, the AA or whatever, then you get directions via the shortest possible route - I know from grim experience that these are usually not really suitable for a Truck (my definition of a truck being about 55ft long, 8 to 9 ft wide, with a max weight of 44 tonnes).

I recently demolished someones guttering because I followed the computer generated directions I was given for a location I'd never visited.

Hence truck directions are usually different to the ones you'd get from the net or a satnav device (though there is due to be a satnav device with a "truck" setting soon, which is expected to cost the bargain price of about £500 - no different from the "truckers maps" i.e. most up to date road atlas for cars are about the £7 to £8 mark, the latest truckers version is about £15 - another transport related "bargain").

Oh, and plus even with the forthcoming changes to the RTA (Road Traffic Act), it's still only gonna affect vehicles of a GVW exceeding 3.5 tonnes. Hence my efforts to establish whether development of a "Tacho Timer" for mobile devices, won't affect other road users i.e. the majority.

regards

John
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjmac wrote:
Howdy John


-----%<-----

Just thinking ... how would a gps system work into this. Is there already some facility there that isn't being used. Such as, something that kicks in as soon as the vehicle moves, keeps state, then continues with further movement. This really could expand into something eventually ....


jm


The difficulty with that might be that there are no "approximates" in the case of driver timing for truckers i.e. a gps based thing would have the "lag" of how fast it's updated (or how often), whereas the tacho recording head is a combined recording device and speedometer so that as soon as the vehicle moves, however slowly, it knows that it's moving. This might be possible eventually, but right now it could only work on that basis if the timer device was connected to the vehicle directly in some way, which is beyond the ability of a majority of drivers.

The new "digital" tacho recorders (being fitted to newly registered vehicles since June/July this year) will have the facility to pass/download the info remotely to the vehicle "operator" (for that, operator is basically the owner), so they can spy on the drivers and cover their asses/be notified of any violations. Great in theory, except it still would mean that the damn driver doesn't get the info, unless "they" fit laptops to every vehicle - which, unless a company uses such a system (some of the very large operators do) ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

It would be nice if the new tacho devices _HAD_ to be fitted to all trucks but the "drag arses" of industry have got round that (and the accompanying expense) by agreeing that the digital devices are only fitted to brand new vehicles. So the possibility of a small app that allows bluetooth to pass the info for display isn't likely to be of any use either.

Which then makes my quest a bit "circular" inasfaras regular professional drivers also need to record the times of when they're _NOT_ driving, soas to record "weekly rest" i.e. 45 hours per week, which can be reduced to 36 hours per week but which has to be compensated for by the end of the............yaddah yaddah yaddah. In otherwords, so they also know when they can legally drive again. So right now, I can only think of a software based timer in a mobile phone (for example) that just "ticks" away in the background, then it's just the driver that has to "tell" it what other functions it should be recording.

Sorry if this is sound more and more complex. It must sound very strange, not only for a "non driver" (not a trucker) but one who is also not living in the EU, because few, to non of those who you might come across will have used "tachos".

Right, I'm off to see if I can make any sense of "kdevelop".

TTFN

John
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>>
Right, I'm off to see if I can make any sense of "kdevelop".
>>

(grin)

Yes, the keeping 'tabs' on drivers via gps trick is happening now, over here.

Sounds like something involving a dash board mounted read out, conected via a small cable would be useful as well. It would save having to search around for the hand held etc.

As for Kdevelop, yes, i prefer free floating window apps myself though. So i would tend to go for things like Glade. But thats not really important ultimately.

Good Luck, we'll see how it all develops. But i figure it will be something that goes well into, if not all of, 2007.


jm
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