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What's preventing mainstream adoption of Linux
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Bazza
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1462
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi wyliecoyote...

> I really hate the "Windows always works perfectly " threads.

Erm, I haven`t written that nor have I mentioned it.
Do people deliberately filter and/or change words, phrases and
sentences to suit themselves?
Is this a pre-requisite of MLs and Forums?

> I support windows in the field, and it breaks quite often,
> and it is often difficult to fix.

No OS is immune and Linux is just as much a PITA as Windows.
I can`t definitively comment about Apple as I have very limited
experience and knowledge of the platform; but I guess Mac
OS X+ can be just as much a real PITA at times too.

But that still doesn`t mean that Linux is ready for the move
to general desktop usage for the masses and/or silver surfers
of this world.

My mum, (80), and dad, (82), just want to go straight into
the web after a bootup, not all of the rigmarole of choosing
between "root" and "user" that is still around on many distros
and all the other paraphenalia associated with "root" access.
Both suffer from serious arthritius of the fingers. Even mouse
operation can be difficult to them at times, so one less
operation makes life a little easier on their aging hands.

There are some brilliant brains out there working on Linux
and producing some seriously good results - BUT - they SEEM
to assume that everyone is 15 to 50(ish), nimble, have
IQs of an atomic physicist, is au fait with technology, has
immediate knowledge of all the abbreviations and has a concept
of the Console for help. My parents have none of these and so
for them Windows works fine.

Yes, the Vista OS was pre-installed when they bought their
machines - NO HASSLE for them - so until all manufacturers
of PCs recognise Linux as an option at a cheaper price the
present status quo will not change much. But I suspect the
price of machines will not vary much whether Windows 7
is installed or an equivalent Ubuntu variant is installed.
Savings are rarely passed on to the customer.

> I think that you are actually referring to LXF131

Humbly apologise, I stand corrected... :o}
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Bazza
LXF regular


Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1462
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi ollie...

> Hey Bazza, try File > Create > XSane > Device dialog...
> - my webcam is actually listed just below this option by
> default.

Been there, done that, got the tea shirt... :(

"X Failed to open device `v4l:/dev/video0`:
Invalid argument."

What "Invalid argument."???
AND - "v4l:/dev/video0"
To my 80+ year old parents these are about as much use
as a fart in a spacesuit.

And video0 DOES exist, (honestly I wouldn`t lie about it)... :(

End of story...

Can`t even be bothered to find out why...
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wyliecoyoteuk
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:41 pm
Posts: 3422
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bazza wrote:

Do people deliberately filter and/or change words, phrases and
sentences to suit themselves?


Well you seem quite adept at doing so.

At the end of the day, I support Windows Linux and Mac on a daily basis, and have been doing so for over ten years.
I see very little to separate them in terms of usability.

Of the 3, Linux is by far the easiest to support.

And by the way, I am fast approaching retirement, as is my wife, who has happily used Linux for the last 4 or 5 years with no problems.

Wake up. Linux is different to Windows. because it starts from a different paradigm.

In windows, software companies add "features" hoping someone will use them, and if not they are an excuse to sell a new version.
In Linux, unless enough people see a need for a "feature" it is never realised- a far more democratic solution.

Which is a good explanation for the massive code bloat in Windows apps.

I cannot use win7 on my Netbook because it needs 9.5Gb for a basic install without any applications or even AV.

edit: that is on a 16Gb SSD

UNR only requires 1.3 GB

Edit2: reading that made me smile when I recall my Amiga with a whopping 18Mb of memory and a 460Mb HDD!
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Bazza
LXF regular


Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1462
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi wyliecoyote...

> Well you seem quite adept at doing so.

Go look at your replies again!

Where have _I_ put inverted commas as a quote to your
replies of which you have NOT written?

Please show me...

> At the end of the day, I support Windows Linux and Mac
> on a daily basis, and have been doing so for over ten years.

Well sadly I`m just humble Joe Public and know little about
computers.

> I see very little to separate them in terms of usability.

Then if there is little to seperate them why is Linux still only
around 5% of the total consumer computer user base as their
primary OS?

Why NOT call it a single simple generic name like "Doors" to
compete against the commercial giants _simple_ names?

Why not do serious advertising campaigns to get the Joe
Public`s of this world aware of FLOSS and/or Linux flavours?

> And by the way, I am fast approaching retirement, as is
> my wife, who has happily used Linux for the last 4 or 5
> years with no problems.

Me too, 60 this year, but you are a capable hand to have
when she has problems. The outright majority however
don`t have that luxury...

> Edit2: reading that made me smile when I recall my Amiga
> with a whopping 18Mb of memory and a 460Mb HDD!

Mine is still up and running, 6MB Ram and 4GB HDD.
(Along with a Spectrum +3 also... :-O )
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nelz
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:52 pm
Posts: 8364
Location: Warrington, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bazza wrote:
Then if there is little to seperate them why is Linux still only
around 5% of the total consumer computer user base as their
primary OS?


Since when did product quality have anything to do with market share?
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Bazza
LXF regular


Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1462
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi nelz...

>> Then if there is little to seperate them why is Linux still
>> only around 5% of the total consumer computer user
>> base as their primary OS?

> Since when did product quality have anything to do with
> market share?

(No idea, educate me!)
If Linux of any flavour is THAT good then why isn`t it in
pole position and everybody and his brother using it?
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wyliecoyoteuk
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:41 pm
Posts: 3422
Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bazza wrote:

Where have _I_ put inverted commas as a quote to your
replies of which you have NOT written?

Please show me...

well if you can't tell the difference between descriptive comment and quoting, which gives a completely different appearance, was why I used the inverted commas.........
Quote:


Then if there is little to seperate them why is Linux still only
around 5% of the total consumer computer user base as their
primary OS?


Just because a lot of people use one product, doesn't mean it is better. Do Macdonalds made better food than a Michelin star restaurant?
Microsoft ended up as a monopoly because of a combination of luck and marketing, and were in a virtual monopoly well before Linux existed.
Monopolies inevitably lead to poorer quality products. Look at Internet explorer before Firefox came along.
Quote:


Why NOT call it a single simple generic name like "Doors" to
compete against the commercial giants _simple_ names?

Again you miss the point. Linux is not competing against Windows. It is a free community effort, not a product produced by one company.
Quote:

Why not do serious advertising campaigns to get the Joe
Public`s of this world aware of FLOSS and/or Linux flavours?
see above, and who would find the millions of dollars necessary?
Quote:


but you are a capable hand to have
when she has problems. The outright majority however
don`t have that luxury...

Actually, she hardly ever needs any help, nor do my company Linux users (as opposed to my Mac and Windows users) Smile
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Bazza
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1462
Location: Loughborough

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi wyliecoyote...

Note the subject header:-

"What's preventing mainstream adoption of Linux"

> Again you miss the point. Linux is not competing against
> Windows. It is a free community effort, not a product
> produced by one company.

But Linux IS competing against Windows IF it wants to become
mainstream. If NOT then it remains as the geeks OS of choice,
community effort or not, and will remain where it is in the user
hierarchy.

End of story...
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nelz
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:52 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux is mainstream, it just isn't dominant on the desktop. Does that make it less effective? Does that fact that most computers come with Windows because their suppliers get paid to put Windows on make Windows a better OS than Linux?

Dominance in the consumer market is more about marketing than product quality.
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wyliecoyoteuk
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:41 pm
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Location: Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Linux is probably running on far more hardware units than Windows these days.
At a guess, most family homes have 3 or 4 installations that they are totally unaware of, PVRs, DVD players, digital photo frames, phones, etc.
Add to that the fact that most supercomputers and internet facing servers run it (how many thousands of servers do Amazon and Google run?), and many government departments.

The desktop is minor compared to that.
Linux is not about competition, it is about community, progress and the future.
Windows is about user lock-in and screwing the punter.

As an example:
There were quite a few Linux Netbooks sold by previously Windows only outlets.
Apparently some were returned by badly prepared users, but I think that the real reason that they stopped selling them was that they realised that there was no "long tail" of software sales or support fees to be had from selling Linux based PCs.
No Norton Antivirus, most applications and games are free, the OS is exceptionally stable and resistant to malware... seditious stuff.

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

The hardest thing for Linux newbies, after realising that Linux is not a free version of windows, is realising that they are not particularly wanted, which usually happens just after their first rant on a forum.
Linux is not in competition with Windows or Macs.
How does adding users benefit Linux?
How can it be in competition when it makes no profit from sales?
We would all like to see wider adoption of our favourite OS, but in the end, it is not really that important for most of us.

Linux has saved me and my company thousands of pounds.
I hope that our competitors keep on using Windows, it gives us an edge. Smile
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nordle
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:56 pm
Posts: 1500

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just spent 4 days trying to get 2 Windows PC's working with Windows 7.

They are modern (less than 3 months) and from a well known supplier. I'm not going to go into detail as its been VERY traumatic, it brought back hideous memories from the last 15 years of trying to get new plug and play "supported" hardware to work with Windows.

I nearly cried with joy when I booted my own pc and "came home" to the lovely, lovely penguin kernel bootup.

I carried out 2 upgrades in Ubuntu just before, one laptop and one desktop. Almost completely without issue and lots of hand holding.
Utterly brilliant.

Am off to sit in a dark room for several hours, genuinely think the NHS should sue MS for having to deal with many heart attacks and other blood pressure related issues.
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jjmac
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Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 2:32 am
Posts: 1996
Location: Sydney, Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howdy All,


Bazza wrote:

Quote:

>>
The outright majority however
don`t have that luxury...
>>


This is a silly topic really, born of subjective expectations that have been culturally induced.

And which only time will ever adequatly be able to provide an answer to the enquirer.
(sorry about that one Smile, i just could'nt resist it ... and it has been a while Smile )

It reminds me of the time when i was in a Perth caravan park and a young hotty peddling past on a bicycle was heard to comment to her girl friend ...


"daddy will take the _boys_ to Kalgoorlie, but he won't take me (hmmmph)"

And said with much inflection ... Rolling Eyes

Kalgoorlie is a town just west of the western .au border established during an early gold rush period in .au history ... to day, it's considered a bit on the wild side, pubs all over the place etc, though i've never bothered to go look myself.

(grin)


jm
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morcar



Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:55 am
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well here is a story for you about how I got into Linux.

First off I have been around computers since the ZX81 came out and they have always been my passion in whatever I do (gaming, music, art work). Now I built a PC for my father who was happy in using Windows 98 and I had always been a few steps ahead and had the latest of everything like the OS and hardware, but always Windows.

My father went looking about for other OS's just to see what was out there and found a load of different Linux distro's and i have to say they did look good.

What put me off them was the games and who made them because some of them did look like the games i played when i had my ZX81. Well i did dabble with Linux but i always went back to Windows because i couldnt live without my games and i didnt want a dual boot (yeah i know i am fussy).

Well a few days back my friend wanted a certain piece of music for his fathers funereal and i found it on the newsgroups. Downloaded it unpacked it BANG virus wtf ???

I was fuming although i did manage to burn the music. So i sat there cheesed off cuz i knew what was coming the big blitz of my pc because no software was going to get rid of it 100%.

From the corner of my eye a disc shone in my eyes and i picked it up ..... it was a copy of Ubuntu 9.10. I thought what the heck lets throw it in and have a go. Installation was quick and painless and i started to install my ATI Radeon driver from the AMD/ATI site. Which i might add was straight forward even if you did have to the console (thank god i used to have an old 486 with dos).

Then i started to look at what apps were on Ubuntu and it really surprised me how good they were and some better than commercial windows apps. I still have not looked into the games side although i did setup a few emulators and they ran no problems. I also intend to support stuff like Nero Linux as i find its a great program and burns ccertain things i like to download (sadly k3b and brasero wont do it no matter how i try it)

For the connection of networks and the internet i had no problems and connected my wired router to the PC and i was up online with in seconds.

I think a lot of people should try it out and giving it away with the PC they buy is a great idea, but what about if you build one you dont have that option. Maybe the people making the hardware should put flyers in saying you can download linux for nothing and its just as good if not better than windows.

Anyway sorry to bore you and thanks for reading my post (if you did)
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alan404



Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:34 pm
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Location: Haslemere, Surrey UK

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Non technical users -- well "hand holding" helpful software is what I meant by "well documented" - When I saw Ubuntu pop up "do you want to download and install the codec to play this mp3 file" (or something like that) I was overjoyed, because at last it didn't just sit there or come up with a bizarre error message.
Yes a lot of people are tired of this debate, but it's worth having if you care about Linux adoption. It's easy to "believe your own hype" and just think Linux is absolutely the best, but unless you examine the reasons for non adoption, then you'll never understand how to improve.
It's easy to blame big business and money etc, but I think when the netbooks started selling in big numbers with Linux on, a number of things happened.
1. It was seen by many as a "cut down" (cheap - doesn't really work) computer - or you could pay a little bit more and get the proper Windows. (It costs more so it must be better) - this is the buyers choosing, not the shops. So people didn't have the opportunity to realise that Linux is actually much better and comes with loads of software (and if they did, they probably thought it was cheap shareware that didn't really work.)
2. Microsoft were very very frightened - and even extended Win XP sales to counteract this. Who was there to respond?
So yes - you can't compete with huge marketing budgets, but it looked to me that a golden opportunity was missed there.
And I think the phrase "No Hassle" is important. But with Windows and Mac you can usually buy your way out (Mac users will look for "mac compatible" hardware and pay more for it). But over all I think Windows is by far the most hassle (driver installs, updates and viruses etc) - unless it's pre-installed!, followed by Linux and then Mac. But Mac is a very expensive road long term, and they will own your soul.
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ollie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

morcar wrote:
I think a lot of people should try it out and giving it away with the PC they buy is a great idea, but what about if you build one you dont have that option. Maybe the people making the hardware should put flyers in saying you can download linux for nothing and its just as good if not better than windows.


If you can build a PC you can download an ISO image and burn it to CD/DVD. Then you can install it yourself. Alternatively you could purchase Linux Format or just about any other monthly computer magazine and find numerous distros on the accompanying DVD. You could even request a CD of the latest Ubuntu from Canonical which they will send to you gratis.

My recommendation for games - buy a console from Sony, Nintendo or possibly an XBox.
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