Ubuntu will go to base 10 units...

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Postby nelz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:32 am

PCNetSpec wrote:And this is locked in stone?... how about US gallons compared to UK gallons,


That's an excellent example of why bastardisation odf existing measurements is bad. The SI system was set up to avoid that happening, a kilometre is a kilometre wherever you are, and it is never 1024 metres.

or old money/new money


Well, the pound stayed the same. Maybe using penny for a different unit was a poor choice, but as the two systems never ran in parallel it wasn't really a problem.

PCNetSpec wrote:... these things are only 'clearly' defined when people use just one


No, they are clearly defined in the internationally agreed standards. The idea that 1024 is close enough to 1000 to not matter so we may as well use 1000 to mean 1024 was plain lazy, and look at the confusion it has caused. I'm not saying that Ubuntu will fix the situation, they won't, but at least they are standing up and stating they they will no longer contribute to it.
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Postby AndyBaxman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:54 am

nelz wrote:
AndyBaxman wrote:If calling 1024 bytes a Kilobyte is the problem then it would have been better to merely rename the unit


That's exactly what they have done.


I meant rename the units without introducing another system. The point is the base 2 system is the best fit for its purpose.

In other words "Kilobyte", etc, should have been retired/deprecated.
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Postby Bazza » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:06 pm

Hi all...

I`ve been relatively silent on this issue......

Well nelz and I often have our differences of opinion but WRT
to this particular I agree with him entirely...

It it pointless having international standards if no-one adheres
to them.

Using "cross" standardisation to give oneself an advantage
by bending the "rules" is tantamount to selling under false
pretences.

Although I am a culprit of using cross standardisation I`m
glad that at least one OS is going to correct the issue...
73...

Bazza, G0LCU...

Team AMIGA...
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Postby AndyBaxman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:09 pm

nelz wrote:
or old money/new money


Well, the pound stayed the same. Maybe using penny for a different unit was a poor choice, but as the two systems never ran in parallel it wasn't really a problem.


But the Kilobyte / kibi systems do run in parallel and the problem is exactly the same as if the decimal and pre-decimal coinage were used simultaneously.

Actually its worse. There were 240d to a £, so working out the decimal value of old coins was simple. a 6d coin = 2.5p, a florin = 10p (24d) but a Kilobyte = 0.9765625 kibis.
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Postby nelz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:13 pm

AndyBaxman wrote:But the Kilobyte / kibi systems do run in parallel and the problem is exactly the same as if the decimal and pre-decimal coinage were used simultaneously.


That's my point, the monetary system were not used in parallel, so the analogy is pointless.
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Postby nelz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:18 pm

AndyBaxman wrote:I meant rename the units without introducing another system. The point is the base 2 system is the best fit for its purpose.

In other words "Kilobyte", etc, should have been retired/deprecated.


Absolutely right, even better if they hadn't been used in the first place. Maybe kibibyte is not the best choice, but kilobyte was definitely wrong and the *bi prefixes are base 2.

However, it is only for RAM that the base 2 system is needed, for magnetic or optical storage, there are no such constraints from the medium, and this part of the reason so much confusion has arisen. The problem is, the longer is was allowed to continue, the more inertia has to be overcome to resolve it.
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Postby AndyBaxman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:23 pm

nelz wrote:
AndyBaxman wrote:But the Kilobyte / kibi systems do run in parallel and the problem is exactly the same as if the decimal and pre-decimal coinage were used simultaneously.


That's my point, the monetary system were not used in parallel, so the analogy is pointless.


By stating:
nelz wrote:Maybe using penny for a different unit was a poor choice, but as the two systems never ran in parallel it wasn't really a problem.

You inferred that running the two systems in parallel would have been a problem.

The kibi / decimal kilobyte systems do run in parallel and this is a problem.
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Postby nelz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:07 pm

I wasn't inferring that, I pointed out that it did not run in parallel, thus inferring that the comparison was irrelevant.

The problem is not that the kilo/kibi systems run in parallel, the problem is that people use the wrong name. We have miles and kilometres in use at the same time, but there is no confusion because people say miles when they mean miles and kilometres when they mean kilometres.
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Postby gn2 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:11 pm

PCNetSpec wrote:
Ubuntu is an operating system built by a worldwide team of expert developers

from the Ubuntu homepage.

I always thought Linux (or more correctly GNU/Linux) was the OS, Ubuntu a distro... they seem to be taking an awful lot of credit for other peoples work.


You've read more into the quote than is contained therein.
The quote as you made it is perfectly true, Ubuntu is made by a worldwide team of developers, as is every other Gnu/Linux distribution.
The quote does not say that the worldwide team is Ubuntu's, and if Ubuntu isn't an Operating System, I'll eat my flash drive.
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Postby AndyBaxman » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:40 pm

nelz wrote:I wasn't inferring that, I pointed out that it did not run in parallel, thus inferring that the comparison was irrelevant.

The problem is not that the kilo/kibi systems run in parallel, the problem is that people use the wrong name. We have miles and kilometres in use at the same time, but there is no confusion because people say miles when they mean miles and kilometres when they mean kilometres.


A mile has always been a mile, and a kilometre has always been a kilometre.

The problem is that people have, until very recently, always used the term Kilobyte to mean 1024 bytes. Now we are informed that we must call that a "kibi" and a Kilobyte is now 1000 bytes.

Confused? You will be the first time you buy RAM or an SD card quoted in SI units.
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Postby M-Saunders » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:48 pm

Just force gizmo makers to put the full number on the product: 34,985,792,875,345 bytes. That's fine. We geeks can work it out, and Joe Shopper in PC World can ask the staff to explain what that means in old money. (Of course, I'm perhaps overestimating the competence of some PC World staff here...)

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Postby nelz » Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:37 pm

AndyBaxman wrote:A mile has always been a mile, and a kilometre has always been a kilometre.


That's right, nobody buggered about with the definitions and everybody knows exactly what they mean.

AndyBaxman wrote:The problem is that people have, until very recently, always used the term Kilobyte to mean 1024 bytes. Now we are informed that we must call that a "kibi" and a Kilobyte is now 1000 bytes.


So your argument is that because we have done it wrong for so long, and caused confusion, we should continue to do it wrong and cause more confusion.

As for only being informed now, these units were defined ten years ago, it just that Ubuntu have decided to clarify the situation as far as their users are concerned. Some have been using binary units for a while now, including when writing for Linux Format.

AndyBaxman wrote:Confused? You will be the first time you buy RAM or an SD card quoted in SI units.


No, I wasn't :)
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Postby towy71 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:16 pm

gn2 wrote:The quote does not say that the worldwide team is Ubuntu's, and if Ubuntu isn't an Operating System, I'll eat my flash drive.
Ubuntu is the name of a Linux distribution not an operating system per se, just a marketing tool really ;-)
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Postby gn2 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:47 pm

towy71 wrote:Ubuntu is the name of a Linux distribution not an operating system


One has to wonder what it is that they're distributing.
Here was me thinking it was an operating system and suite of applications, guess I'll have to have a rethink... :)

towy71 wrote: just a marketing tool really ;-)


Besides t-shirts and such, what are they selling and can I get it for free instead....?
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Postby AndyBaxman » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:33 am

nelz wrote:So your argument is that because we have done it wrong for so long, and caused confusion, we should continue to do it wrong and cause more confusion.


No, my argument is that because we have done it "wrong" for so long without confusion, we should continue to do it "wrong".
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