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Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista?
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Haakin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

Hi!

It seems that KDE4 is having a lot of growing pains (like Vista). It took too much to be released (like Vista). One of the objectives was to make a more comfortable, powerful and beautiful environmet and IMHO it's a failure in all three areas (like Vista). I should say that I have been using KDE for work since 2.something and it's the only DE I have used since I started to use Linux 6 years ago.

I wonder if KDE is going to be for Free Software what Vista is for Microsoft. I hope it won't but I'm afraid it will. You could say that things are going to be better with new releases. Microsoft says the same with Vista. The problem is that most of the users you lost until everything works fine won't look back.

Maybe now Gnome seems to be geener (or browner) than ever. Although Mac OS X seems to be even more brighter (for me, at least).

What do you think? Is KDE4 going to be hell or heaven?

Javier
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wyliecoyoteuk
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:01 pm    Post subject: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

It is growing on me actually.
remember that it is still a "work in progress"- Vista is too, but it was supposed to be a finished product.
I think that in the end, it will be worth it, 4.1 shows real promise.

No OS can undergo such fundamental changes without some pain, but 3.5 is still there, and will be supported for some time to come.

Unlike the windows world, where MS are trying desperately to kill off XP, and under the facelift, Vista actually differs little from XP.
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Haakin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

wyliecoyoteuk wrote:
It is growing on me actually.
remember that it is still a "work in progress"- Vista is too, but it was supposed to be a finished product.
I think that in the end, it will be worth it, 4.1 shows real promise.


The problem is that now it seems that 4.2 is going to be the promised one... I have tested the last version of KDE (4.1) at home, and it's not ready to do real work.

wyliecoyoteuk wrote:
No OS can undergo such fundamental changes without some pain, but 3.5 is still there, and will be supported for some time to come.

Unlike the windows world, where MS are trying desperately to kill off XP, and under the facelift, Vista actually differs little from XP.


I know it's not the same, but for example Kubuntu users are going to suffer a similar situation. The development team of Kubuntu is not big enough to support two versions of KDE, and they have decided to go for KDE 4 in Kubuntu 8.10. That means that if you won't be able to update the distro, in case you want to continue with KDE 3.5.

The problem with that situation is that you don't get upgrade of the rest of the programs of the desktop. Kubuntu users that choose to continue using KDE 3.5 will have to install one by one all the new versions of the programs they use. And, this could be a lot of work and the main reason you were using a distro in the first place.

Javier
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johnhudson
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:39 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

Part of the problem, based on the Akademy videos I have watched, seems to be that KDE has attracted a lot of people with quite advanced ideas about where a desktop should be going and they are all trying to incorporate their ideas into KDE but managing to do that at different speeds depending on the resources, e.g. programmers, available to them.

If only half of these come off KDE 4 will be quite stunning but quite a lot of the less glamorous programs don't seem able to attract the programming resources at the moment. So a gulf is likely to develop in KDE 4 between those programs which have had a lot of attention and those which are still KDE 3 programs because no one has volunteered to work on them but which need to be available as part of the desktop.

Unlike Vista there will be a process of continuous development; so things will get better - the question is how much better?
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Haakin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

johnhudson wrote:
If only half of these come off KDE 4 will be quite stunning but quite a lot of the less glamorous programs don't seem able to attract the programming resources at the moment. So a gulf is likely to develop in KDE 4 between those programs which have had a lot of attention and those which are still KDE 3 programs because no one has volunteered to work on them but which need to be available as part of the desktop.


Sad

johnhudson wrote:
Unlike Vista there will be a process of continuous development; so things will get better - the question is how much better?


The truth is my experience with Vista is zero, nada. I have only seen it in photos. But, according what I have read in OSnews the things are better with Vista once the Service Pack or packs was/were released. I don't think that it's fair to say that Vista won't be improve in the next months/years.

Anyway I hope that KDE4 is getting to be better faster than Vista... or wait for KDE5 as Windows users are waiting for Windows 7.

Javier
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Rhakios
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

I have tried Vista, at least in the Home Basic version. It's a lot like XP, but with a different skin and more irritating pop-ups. Initially I thought it was also slower than a dead dog, but that turned out to be due to Norton. Once Norton was gone it was quite adequate, but why anyone, with the least technical competence, would prefer it to just about any version of Linux, I can't imagine.
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wyliecoyoteuk
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vista? Reply with quote

Rhakios wrote:
I have tried Vista, at least in the Home Basic version. It's a lot like XP, but with a different skin and more irritating pop-ups. Initially I thought it was also slower than a dead dog, but that turned out to be due to Norton. Once Norton was gone it was quite adequate, but why anyone, with the least technical competence, would prefer it to just about any version of Linux, I can't imagine.


Lock it down with Group policies, and it looks and behaves much like XP ( on my network at least).
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pootman
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vi Reply with quote

Not having a spare Vista licence for my eee, I'm learning to love XP again. Once I installed live search there's not too much I miss from Vista, but I miss the convenience of user account control most. No sarcasm. I really do.

Anyway, I've had a look at 4.1 in Mandriva and it does seem like there's been some fundamental change to the way windows (that's windows, not Windows(tm)) 'work'. It's nice to see innovation even though I haven't got time to understand it (yet). The first time I saw Office 2007 my initial reaction was very negative, but when I took the time to understand the changes I was quite impressed. It's not perfect (by a long long way), but it's a big improvement over the ancient/venerable menubar and toolbar.

Anyway, I hope KDE4 is the next Vista. I like Vista.
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Rhakios
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:03 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vi Reply with quote

As or KDE4, it doesn't want me to be able to work in the way I am used to. It has replaced perfectly serviceable desktop icons with Widgets, over which I have rather less control, but which do not offer any greater functionality (for example the Trash widget, in exactly what way is this better than the old desktop icon?).
I am supposed to think the Desktop Folder widget is a good container for my desktop icons, except that now I cannot have them where I want on the desktop, instead they are stuck in a barely configurable fake window.
Dolphin (which I have only experimented to any extent with in a Mandriva VM) behaves very oddly, hammering the processor whenever I select any large file, yet Konqueror in File Manager mode does not do this.
There are other things, but it's getting late.
Overall, KDE4 is different, but not better in any way than KDE3 at this point.
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OnlyTheTony
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:43 am    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vi Reply with quote

You can't really compare KDE4 to Vista - yes, KDE4 has its problems but at least we didn't have to pay for it to discover them...
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HINTERG
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vi Reply with quote

There is another way inwhich KDE is like Vista. Poor perception. I have never tried it, and now, probably never will. Everything I read about it suggests it is difficult to configure, resource hungry, and slow. Am I missing something? I thought a desktop environment should be as invisible as possible, not a job of work. Xfce on the other hand.........
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andy_england



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:20 pm    Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Is KDE4 going to be then next Vi Reply with quote

It's not difficult to configure and it's not at all slow, in my experience. I waited an age for 4 to be released, was massively dissapointed and ended up in GNOME exile for a year and a half. Nothing particularly wrong with GNOME, but it's always been slow in my experience and a little dated (though there are some things I miss about it). Now I use 4.1 permanently. It still has a few glitches, but it's stable, fast and looks much nicer. The thing about KDE3 was that, although well developed, it had so many options and resembled the past with bits of the future unsuccessfully stuck on. 4 is a big improvement in that area, but I wish they'd do something about the menu - a big slab of white doesn't sit well with a slick black desktop! Besides that, it's the end of 2008 - there shouldn't be such a problem with two desktops. The apps. from each should fit seamlessly into the other desktop. Can't be beyond the genius of man, surely?
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chrishall57



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE4 already is the next Vista!

At least in terms of processing power it uses. Having installed it on Mandriva it's only been a matter of time before the processes run away and overheat my machine.

Shame because I actually think it's a great desktop and have always favoured KDE for the last 5 years..

Gnome / XFCE for me at the moment unless they do something with the processor usage.
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jjmac
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rhakios wrote:
>>
As or KDE4, it doesn't want me to be able to work in the way I am used to. It has replaced perfectly serviceable desktop icons with Widgets, over which I have rather less control, but which do not offer any greater functionality (for example the Trash widget, in exactly what way is this better than the old desktop icon?).
I am supposed to think the Desktop Folder widget is a good container for my desktop icons, except that now I cannot have them where I want on the desktop, instead they are stuck in a barely configurable fake window.
>>

Removing control/configurability is just so 'not Linux' too.

I wonder why they just don't implement a more modular development model. One that would allow a person to update only the parts they want. Intercommunication protocol changes isn't a good excuse really, if that is thought to be a reason.

It all makes me think of LTs' comment about hardware manufacturers at times.


jm
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andy_england



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recognise any of this. I've had no run-away processes and the RAM usage isn't through the roof, either. I've always found KDE to be slicker than GNOME, which seems to have an irritating habit of starting processes that hog the entire CPU and freezing any work on the go. KDE has always been faster and it's no change with version 4. The only problem I have with speed regards Dolphin's file copying and image previews, if there are a lot of images in a folder. Bear in mind also that, whilst still very much in its infancy, GNOME is looking ahead to version 3, which will no doubt draw the same criticisms and complaints as KDE 4 does at present, whilst KDE 4 will no doubt be considered the 'stable' one! There's always much talk of wanting to see Linux being more widely adopted, but it seems that there are a lot of people who just want it to stand still. For me KDE 4 represents a step in the right direction, even if they were late getting out of the stable door and not in a good enough condition initially.
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